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Tuesday, November 3, 2015

Denmark: We Are Not The Socialist Utopia Bernie Sanders Thinks We Are

Citizens Fed Up

Shared publicly  -  10:39 AM
 
Denmark: We Are Not The Socialist Utopia Bernie Sanders Thinks We Are

Danish prime minister Lars Løkke Rasmussen, speaking at Harvard’s Kennedy School of Government this week, says Sanders got more than a few things wrong.

“I know that some people in the US associate the Nordic model with some sort of socialism. Therefore I would like to make one thing clear. Denmark is far from a socialist planned economy. Denmark is a market economy.”

As Quartz reported during the Democratic debate, Sanders’ admiration for Denmark’s left-leaning policies is a little outdated: Rasmussen was elected as part of a center-right coalition, with the right-wing, anti-immigration Danish People’s Party becoming the second-largest party in parliament.

And some of the confusion may stem from the definition of socialism in the first place: Technically, a socialist state as set out by Vladimir Lenin is one where the government owns all means of production, which is certainly not the case in the Nordic countries. But in general parlance it has come to be used as a shorthand for a market economy fused with a comprehensive and generous welfare state.

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Ross S
10:58 AM
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Exactly. Democratic socialist is regulated capitalism NOT a socialist state. Tell the right wing this. 
EPIC MOTARD
11:02 AM
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This still doesn't change the fact that Sanders is an idiot. 
Nicholas Duvall
11:05 AM
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+EPIC MOTARD , How exactly is Sanders an idiot? Please provide some insight to your thought process.
Jim Sisco
11:08 AM
 
 
For a so called "market economy" to have a housing shortage makes me think that they are doing it wrong.
Chris C
11:08 AM
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+EPIC MOTARD and which candidate do you think isn't an idiot? I'm very curious of your answer
Timothy Collins
11:12 AM
 
 
+Nicholas Duvall Sanders isn't an idiot. I think he's actually smart. But let me ask you something :

Let's say you were on a car lot and a salesman came out and told you everything you wanted to hear and presented you with a used car that he claimed would solve all your problems - but it cost $300,000 to buy.

Would you step back and think "Maybe this guy is just telling me stuff to get me to buy it and might be pandering to me" or would you say "He must be telling me the truth, I must buy this car and I don't care if it puts me in debt for the rest of my life!"?
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Nicholas Duvall
11:16 AM
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I agree with Sanders' 30 year career and what he stands for. He's different than any other candidate and speaks only to the issues and not the bullshit.

Will Bernie save the day? No, we're already to fucked for that. But he sure is hell better than the rest of the bunch -- by a landslide.

And if I'm to assume you're using the money reference on purpose, here's a link for that:

http://goo.gl/FF2LhL
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G Nag
11:16 AM
 
 
+Chris C (fingers crossed) please say trump. please say trump. please say trump....
Plinio Cabrera
11:22 AM
 
 
Socialism exists only in the minds of Socialists. after 15 years of "socialism", Venezuela suffers a kind of wild capitalism+autoritarism. 
Timothy Collins
11:22 AM
 
 
+Nicholas Duvall He has been a politician for 3 decades. As such, he has learned that the best way to advance his career is to tell people what they want to hear. Always distrust a politician that pops up and says everything right - a politician like that is always lying about what he really thinks.
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Nicholas Duvall
11:24 AM
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I support his voting record, what specifically about it don't you support +Timothy Collins.

And is it safe to assume you support no one?
Bob Turley
11:25 AM
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Everyone but Sanders and the Green Party belong to the banks...what else matters more than that? The billionaires have enriched themselves by making most others poorer and it can not get much worse without a civil war.
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Ross S
11:26 AM
 
 
+Nicholas Duvall he has or had, a hard on for Hillary. Needless to say, he blocked me lol
EPIC MOTARD
11:34 AM
 
 
Ok, you guys want an explanation? Let's do the math right here, right now. Over a time span of 10 years, Bernie's plan will cost 18 trillion. Let's say you cut military spending entirely, with that you would have saved $610 billion/a year. 10 years later we would have saved $6 trillion. As for the 1%, who are Americans with a household income of over $500k a year. Let's say you tax all earnings, all 100% of it over a million dollars. You'll get $616 billion/a year, 10 years later you would have saved another $6 trillion. $6 trillion(military cut) + $6 trillion(tax) = drum roll.


$12 TRILLION!!!!!!! Sorry, that still isn't going to cut it. Either that man is a cunning liar, or really stupid.
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Timothy Collins
11:37 AM
 
 
+Nicholas Duvall I find Sanders to be objectionable in his rhetoric.

Trump pops up and blames illegal immigrants for all our problems. Sanders does the same thing except blames the top 1% for all our problems. Both are just scapegoating about 1% of the people in this country.

If Sanders were being honest he'd set down and tell voters that the problems in this country are not localized to 1% of the population - that the problems we are experiencing are a result of 100% of the population making bad decisions. But what he is saying is the easy thing - "You aren't to blame, it's these other people". Trump is doing the same thing. Populism like that is never a good thing to elect into the oval office.

Basically I have the same problems with Sanders that I do Trump.
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Ross S
11:43 AM
 
 
+EPIC MOTARD I'm not sure where you get 18 trillion (if you spewed the WSJ article, be ashamed of yourself), but like I've said, only a 50¢ tax on $100 traded on wall street. That's for free education for all. Which one of his plan costs so much, that he has no plan for?
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Nicholas Duvall
12:37 PM
 
 
The top 1% has caused most of our problems, so again -- I agree with him there. Blame who should be blamed. They own and control everything and manipulate all of us.

Shit, they've even convinced most of us that we'll actually eventually be the 1% if we dream hard enough.
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Timothy Collins
12:48 PM
 
 
+Nicholas Duvall "The top 1% has caused most of our problems" - Which sounds dangerously close to the republicans saying "The 1% of the population that is illegal immigrants has caused most of our problems."

The fact is that, no, one tiny subset of the population has not caused our problems. Things do not work that way. You can't just point at a group of people and blame your problems on them. Our problems have come from a cultural set of decisions and mindsets that led to the production of that 1%. We all are the problem.

Finding a scapegoat and blaming problems on them is the easy argument. It's also the wrong one.

We could wipe out that 1% tomorrow and in a decade it'd just be another 1% sitting in the same position if we don't change the culture that everyone subscribes to.
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Nicholas Duvall
12:58 PM
 
 
A cultural set of decisions pushed on us by old money that's been around for generations. When the 1% own the media, the energy companies, and the banks we have a problem.

The fact it's not quite obvious to everyone is what is really scary. I agree with you though -- we are a stupid species.
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Timothy Collins
1:01 PM
 
 
+Nicholas Duvall The fact is that if we want to approach real change - real, lasting, change - we have to look at things in a more nuanced and objective light than populism allows for (And Sanders is a populist candidate).

We can't simply identify one tiny portion o the population and blame them. We can't approach the problems with the blunt hammer of only one idea (Raising taxes or tax cuts - both are just blunt tools).

We have to step back and rethink things at a base level. We have to promote a society that allows for all to be competitive to one another to allow the economic turnover that a country needs. We need one generations 1% to not be the next generations 1% in other words - that needs to change from one generation to another.

We have to reevaluate the role that the US plays in the world. What do we want to do and how do we accomplish that with the least disruption? Because right now we are the force that basically keeps the word as stable as it is - if we just wake up tomorrow an decide to stop that "World police" thing we do, that isn't going to lead to anything good... If we want to stop that we have to consider how to transition to it. I don't think Sanders has a good grasp on that part of the job.

We have to look at a lot of things and I don't get a feeling that Sanders ideas takes the true nuance into account. He has a hammer (Tax increases) and sees everything as a nail. 
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Nicholas Duvall
1:05 PM
 
 
We keep the world stable? The US does quite the opposite.

How are you going to step back and evaluate this while the 1% brainwashes your brethren, silences those who oppose them with money and litigation, and continues to poison our food supplies just to make a buck?
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Timothy Collins
1:23 PM
 
 
+Nicholas Duvall Actually we do keep the world stable. Without the US doing what it does, the world would be in a much more unstable state. It's not perfect by any means, but it's a heck of a lot better than if we weren't doing it.

And your second paragraph points to the very problem that you have. You are panicking and looking to act quickly. That mindset never - never - leads to very goos results.
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Nicholas Duvall
1:34 PM
 
 
So what's your plan?

Bernie would like the rich to pay their fair share of taxes in order to fix our crumbling infrastructure, save our children from student loan debt, and provide health care for all.

Meanwhile you're going to take a step back and look at things with a more nuanced approach. Sounds about as effective as Hillary saying cut it out to Wall Street.
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Timothy Collins
1:44 PM
 
 
+Nicholas Duvall What is my plan? I suggest that we do a few things :

1. We have to emphasize education in this country. We have to not only make our schools better, we have to make being smart "cool". One way to do that is to actually emphasize that the world is a complex place and complex ideas are needed rather than just picking a small group of people to blame problems on.

2. We have to slowly end our presence in the world. And by slowly, I mean embark on a generations long shutdown of many of our military bases around the world.

3. We have to explain to people in this country that big ideas take time to accomplish. We aren't going to fix everything in one 4 year term in office or even 8 years.

4. We have to expand our diplomatic efforts abroad - that includes trade agreements with other countries. We can't focus solely on domestic affairs because problems in the rest of the world affect things at home. Economic and social strife in other countries directly and indirectly affects our stability inside our borders. We have to actually use things like NAFTA and TPP to help other countries become our equals. We can't just engage in social and economic isolationism.

5. We do have to raise taxes. We cannot allow the rich to suck our money out. But we also have to temper that with a change to the regulations we impose on many things. Strengthen the regulations in areas like FDA and DOE and the environment and wages, by all means, but loosen them in terms of how difficult it is to start a new business.

Those are 4 things that I can think of off the top of my head. Sanders overlaps in some areas but I think his approach is much too parochial in others.
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Nicholas Duvall
1:47 PM
 
 
I agree with most of those things. Our school systems need to be completely revamped, they're designed to bring children up as consumers and employees for the system -- not to think for themselves as they should be taught.

Which candidate to you think is going to do a better job at the things you've pointed out?
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Timothy Collins
1:50 PM
 
 
+Nicholas Duvall I think that Clinton, considering that a huge portion of any presidency is foreign policy, has much better credentials for sitting in the oval office than Sanders. Sanders is a fine senator - where he can fight for what he thinks are good bills and even write legislation. I think he lacks the system view of a president, though.
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Nicholas Duvall
2:01 PM
 
 
And with the financing for her coming out of Wall Street she has a good chance of winning! Almost like it's bought and paid for!
Timothy Collins
2:02 PM
 
 
+Nicholas Duvall You see, that is the type of thinking that I oppose. You are replacing serious consideration with knee jerk "rich = evil" thought processes... Which, by the way, is the same flaw Trump supporter have with their "Immigrant = evil" thoughts...
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Nicholas Duvall
2:08 PM
 
 
Wall Street is gambling and should be stopped, not empowered. That's common sense, not a knee jerk reaction. Ya think she's not going to owe them a favor?

Elections are bought and paid for by the rich, hence the reason the government then serves them.

You can't suck money out of a system to the top and not expect the bottom to be disenfranchised. That's reality, my friend.
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Timothy Collins
2:17 PM
 
 
+Nicholas Duvall Your knee jerk reaction is "All people with lots of money are evil". I agree that Wall Street must be reformed. I do not agree with making what is a basically bigoted decision based solely on one aspect of a person - whether they have money or not. That is as wrong as making a decision about whether a person is good or bad based solely on skin color. Bigotry is bigotry whether it is applied to skin color, gender, sexual orientation, bank account or any other single aspect of a person.

Therefore to say "Clinton is getting money from the rich therefore her supporters are evil" (Which is really what you are trying to say) is wrong. You are making a decision based only on one aspect of a person.
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Timothy Collins
2:18 PM
 
 
+Nicholas Duvall Tell me - does the size of a bank account determine if a person is good or not in your mind?
Nicholas Duvall
2:21 PM
 
 
Yes, at a certain point -- absolutely.
Timothy Collins
2:43 PM
 
 
+Nicholas Duvall So, in other words, you feel you can judge a persons goodness based on bank account. Just like others feel they can do that based on skin color or any other superficial aspect of a person.

Discussion over. Your worldview is much too simplistic to talk to.
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