عندما يعبد الإنسان نفسه..القذافي مثالاً هنا تجد حديث (شلقم) وزير الخارجية السابق عن شخصية القذافي في خمس حلقات.international.daralhayat.com/internationala… #Libya
Rome - Ghassan Charbel
Exclude the former Libyan Foreign Minister Abdel Rahman Shalgam, Muammar Qaddafi to submit to commit suicide, is not unlikely to agree to go out with his family if I apply the rebels on Tripoli. He says the former foreign minister and former director of the Foreign Intelligence Moses Kosi broke «when he found that Muammar itself a crime», pointing out that he was accompanied on his journey from Britain to Qatar after bolting.
He points out that after folding the file of weapons of mass destruction, the hardware Libyan provide hardware U.S. security and without reservation information on the «base» and the Islamists. Shalgam say that the Libyans are looking to build a civil state based on pluralism and peaceful transfer of power. ,
And warns that any attempt to impose a single formula will face tough rejected, so that the Libyans «do not want Taliban-like rule». Could not hide his concern over the difficulties in the transitional stage, because of the lack of experience party and trade union and civil society during the past four decades. In this episode, talking Shalkam his last meeting with Gaddafi, and his defection from the system, and the story of «King of Kings of Africa». Here is the text of the episode fifth and final : > Tell us about the recent meeting with Gaddafi? - the last meeting was in November 6 (November) after my return from New York. Libya will host the Group of 77 plus China, any 130 head (because it was the role of Africa to host the event). The idea was to take place in September and put the changing of the United Nations and other topics. I visited him in the name boxes Vkelmena Bashir Saleh, Director of the Office of Muammar Gaddafi, said the move now to the boxes, a protected area like the Apple and sheep and trees. So I went and found Muammar outdoors and we talked about this conference. Then I told him let me I would be so rude.
The joke he told me you always so rude. I told him that the country lost and become carrion and worms come out, you're the only one who can save it, but I do not want to talk in the absence of Prime Minister al-Baghdadi, a friend and colleague. I usually do not talk behind people. When I want to criticize someone please tell Astdah. Called on the secretariat and noted Tell the Baghdadi to attend now. Again, he (the secretary) says Mr. al-Baghdadi (notify you) that in an important meeting and will come in later. I told him about unemployment, I told him about his children: Saif is not interested. I told him about education, about transparency, about the whole situation and he tells me you are right, you are right, true, true ...
Then he said to me, 'Abdul Rahman, when we came to power, which had five people has become a fifty and five hundred, every person who deviated, which was not «brewed» now «brewed», which was not committing adultery was adultery, which was not stolen was stolen. We grow old and must recognize all of our children. I told him my Leader I'm with you, but my children are not with you, they want another world.Said to me, even my children are not with me, my children like your children. I told him about the administrative system in the state. Was responsive and understanding and left.the next day spoke to me, brother Mohammed angular Secretary of General People's Congress (like the head of parliament) said to me over on me. I went to him and said to me spoke to me, Brother Muammar told me that he passed on Rahman Shalgam and was angry and pessimistic and Zaalana, summoned al-Baghdadi al-Mahmoudi (Prime Minister) and discussed. We received the Baghdadi. I do not want to tell what happened until the problems are not a reason for them now. But in general they said there were errors and I said to al-Baghdadi did not have to resign, the people are all Tlomk. Ahmed came howitzer blood then entered into a room alone with al-Baghdadi, and we spoke bluntly and told me there is corruption, and complained of many things and we left. In the evening visited Mohammed al in my house and told me the situation is difficult and repair is difficult, but we must bear.
I told him how long? Endured for 42 years, when the reform? What do you think he told me to hold Congress and you are choosing the General People's Committee, which constitute a government. I told him that she died after Libya became the body you want me to cook it the oldest and the Libyans. I can not leave Libya has not come back. Muhammad my friend and angular like my brother and affection between us and the relationship of ancient and intimate. Call me back the next day, Abu Zaid Dorda Intelligence Director (a former prime minister and ambassador to the United Nations) is a person who is also a patriotic and critical of corruption and not see, and my relationship with him an intimate and informed me that he is coming to. Came to me and said he heard the words of Muhammad angular disturbed him, he said that you think does not come back to leave and this is unreasonable and wrong. I told him it was only a moment of anger, he was afraid of arrest or from a travel ban and we talked and admitted that there was corruption and that reform is difficult and this is what happened.
Do you have made your decision? - I thought several times before. Even when she was called from Italy in 1994, I thought not to go back to Libya, as most of my colleagues - 99 percent of my colleagues - at the university in Egypt. Even in Egypt, I had a position. When I was president of the Federation of Libyan students in Egypt Mhxa you, I have confiscated writings, articles, and Muammar but he was defending me. Of course he benefited from my relationships and my relationships with Gatti and the outside world to solve its problems. And has analyzed the Lockerbie case and weapons of mass destruction and «Utah». I opened the doors to Europe, and opened his doors to the United Nations. Most of the people around him were liars bidders before the leader we are such and such, and logos, and then tell me you act is true. I had gave me the courage and Muammar margin. I always say to the Secretariat that Gaddafi gave me a margin of intellectual puts me in a cage, not the employee. Is Astamlna and benefited from my vision and my vision is Mhacksta to the world. Properly. Muammar spoken to a friend that in this crisis, missed Rahman Shalgam. Huni & Leather >
I want to ask about people: How do you see Moneim Hun exhibitions and is currently a member of the Revolutionary Command Council, upon its establishment? - Abdel-Moneim the Hun from Tripoli man urban and the difference between him and Gaddafi, for example, that Hun was to go to Egypt, an officer, before the revolution. Intellectuals meet in Tripoli and was the second man in the revolution, such as Salam skins. He used to say, when to postpone the date the revolution, why are you afraid of the revolution, I seized on the system. Abdel Moneim took a position early and told me I felt that Muammar change from the beginning of the seventies and he wants to seize power and take a stand. > Gaddafi chased devices for years? - was targeted is still on the list of qualifiers. Man and not a national standing, loyal, a civilized Zahid did not want a position at all. Libya wants only to be free.
And I respect and the largest of these, including me. I do not want a position I just want to graves in Libya, free. > Do not you want a position in the new Libya? - I want graves in Libya, free. I sleep in the soil of free only. > what kind of person is by virtue of your knowledge Salam skins with it? - fastened by the close relationship which is known to the world, unlike Muammar, traveled and opened the sitting and the accident. Get excited and angry but he is white no malice. I collided with him and loves me. Took a position is not marginalized. Is the only one who cries in the face of Gaddafi says his mind. In the early nineties took a stand. Speak and criticize is not satisfied, a state error. All attempts at development, development and economic boom that took place in the seventies thanks to the Salam skins. Person does not accept corruption raises his voice to Muammar. And when he saw that the boys started to quit interfering with respect. At a conference in Tripoli said to Brother Muammar you Gltan.
He wanted and wants to develop housing arrangements. And I said it once in a lecture and I am the Minister of Foreign Affairs defended Salam skins People Aattabrtina crazy and wrote in Libyan newspapers: «Shalgam defend skins». > and Abu Bakr Younis? - human being who was clean, but his children and dragged him and was involved in corruption and implicated Muammar mired in corruption. He is now one of the biggest corrupt in Libya and the Sons of millions of Genoa, he is now cheering for blood. Gaddafi and side to defend the killing, unfortunately, was a good man and a clean and nationally, but now we consider a criminal and wanted by Interpol, will find himself before the Criminal Court. Abu Bakr and criminal murderers of the Libyan people. How biased against people of your people? >
How Gaddafi turned from a simple humble man to the dictator of this kind? Gaddafi was a junior officer is passionate about making authority «monster»? - can be here to return to Freud, Jung and others and talk about the impact of childhood and the social environment and friends. Muammar was repressed by his father, Mohammed Abdul Salam Bomenaar who was among those recruited by the Italians to fight against the Libyans. The body of the father of Muammar is now in the cemetery of the martyrs, a conscript in the battalion «Panda» and fought in the Libyan Sirte, his father is not a mujahid. A picture of Nasser and the impact of repression and poverty. There is also the pressure of long years and the tension resulting from the exercise of power. > Tell us about the story of his inauguration himself king of the kings of Africa. - I recommend you book in French entitled «Anatomy of a tyrant». We were in Benghazi on 30 August 2009 before my departure to the United Nations and we were at «Houari» Muammar on a farm and I Bashir Saleh, director of the office, we reviewed the Convention and the Treaty and agreed to visit us Berlusconi. Then I sat down to eat pasta and Bashir said to me that Zaalan and upset. I asked him why and he said: «your friend will be announced himself king of kings». Asked: «the king of kings?».Answered: «King of Kings of Africa», and was very upset. He added: «informed me that he equipped with a crown, bracelets, rings, will announce today or tomorrow, and this catastrophe». I said: «I do not believe it, let me go and talk to him». He told me: «Do not try this told me I am a man is not unprecedented in the history Ancefna one. Africans have decided to Ansabona their king they are the best of you. Sabus and the crown and the world will see that I am the King of Kings I am a man unprecedented ». I told Bashir: «Are you kidding?».
He put his hands on his forehead and said: «My brother, this is what happened». I asked him: «Have you talked with Saif al-Islam»? He replied: «Yes, Saif al-Islam and cried and shocked». I said to him: «He let me talk to him in the tent proximity».Everyone: «Be careful not to hurt you go». I told Bashir: «This situation is dangerous and will damage all of us», he answered: «I can not do something you do not». I said: «What is the solution»? He replied: «there is no solution with this man. Behind his head ». I said to him: «Italians say about this man full of self-Batikhh such as when the whole crust and its interior face value». And Bashir was angry and because he loves Zaalana Muammar. And we were surprised that it actually appeared (to the agency) and this was a shock to the Libyans and contributed to the start of the revolution against him because the Libyans have lost all hope for it and looked at him he became a human being unusual, a man is sick, a man crazy, man asshole, anomalous in terms of clothing. > What is the story clothes Gaddafi exotic ? - his clothes a kind of perversion to say I disagree with you, O people, this is not the only feature of Muammar Gaddafi and maimed every dictators and those who suffer from neuroses and perversion are trying to differ from the others. We all wear a suit and tie, and alike, but he wants to say it is different from us. The difference between us and you can not pray for him. I do not wear clothes that can think in one to wear them. If the difference in distance between me and you are not, not only for the application, but just to think about: vivid colors, for example. I would give me $ 100 million and told me to wear clothes you do not say Gaddafi. Be the mean time I go to «Alasforeh» (psychiatric hospital) is better for me.
When he announced himself king of the kings of Africa, I thought firmly believe that the Libyans will start to revolt against Gaddafi, even before the events in Tunisia and I heard that already from the ring near it, they were in a state of anger and misery. > Who advised him to set himself king of the kings of Africa, for example? - No one.This random neuroses thinking abnormal. > of his friends in Africa? - Muammar have no friends so that some presidents Eetmlqouna for a handful of dollars and once the leaves begin to Bashtmh This happened to me, for example the President of Chad, President of Burkina Faso. They praise him with Gaddafi Amagdouna and then farewell to them at the airport you say your site better and closer you look to Europe to Dubai are the best of you.> Why Gaddafi Chad cared to this extent? Was it aspires to be controlled by? - but not his tribe Alqmazfah, 80 percent of whom are now back in Chad to the south of Libya, to Sirte.All of them are involved with Chad and like a camel, grazing and Chad the most appropriate for them. Muammar even if escaped and has a relationship with the President of Chad said that he had a container of gold and dollars found in Chad. If you catch him escape the fire and gunpowder.
However, if the order would not go out to Chad will go to another place.That is, if the run will go to Chad and he has left the arrangements would not go to, but I do not know where. > Do you think he would accept the order for his release at the end or commit suicide? - If the pressure of the rebels seriously and approached from Tripoli I think that Muammar will be subject to and will leave with his family to a place safe from the itself. Muammar not commit suicide because he idolizes himself. If you put the noose around his neck will never be like Saddam, not a comparison between Saddam Hussein and Muammar. Saddam a criminal, crazy, odd, but the patient is full of slogans, Muammar full of itself is not only full of itself. > Do you know why the comments of Gaddafi at the start of the events in Tunisia? - Muammar when he learned what had happened in Tunisia, appeared on the channel «people» puffy face It is clear that he made right in the face (of the face lift or the like) and had collapsed and was planning to return to Tunisia, Ben Ali, at any price. Not for the explosion in Libya, Muammar al-ready to dismiss all the wealth of Libya to return it because the fall of Tunisia is the mean fall, then it exploded,
Egypt.Muammar Sabha when he was in the fall (in order) Tunisia. In all parts of Libya Buildings ready access to distribution and was then in the Sabha, said all the Libyans everywhere to enter these buildings: half a million housing units had been written off after all over Libya: in Tobruk, Tripoli, Tripoli, Sabha, Tripoli ... Within two hours, and then said the army should Akhalém of these buildings. Here, the «game» (trick) When removing people entered the Brigades Gaddafi introduced the weapon into these buildings were representative. Muammar when you get the events in the fall of Tunisia, Ben Ali was in the Sabha said, 'O Libyans Take prefabricated buildings for housing and said to the Libyans: «occupied». Then the next day asked the battalion evacuate people and take them they were an opportunity for battalions to enter the cities and introduced the weapon. This program prepared by the Gaddafi even before the events of Egypt. That is why we have politicians do not know the difference between the savvy and bullying. Gaddafi, Lebanon >
What was the Gaddafi wants from Lebanon? - Muammar al-Salafi beliefs live on national and subjects them to his advantage. The truth is that a stranger. Does not believe in Arab nationalism. Does not believe in Arab unity. But does not believe in Mu `ammar al-Qadhafi.Everything is subject to his person and serve the person. His case is the only Muammar Gaddafi, his power and his image. Gaddafi Lebanon is a factory of the Arab leadership. And see open country can be hired by the parties and associations, journalists, writers, poets, or you find the one chanting your name and shine your pictures and talking about the creations. He said that nothing of making the leadership of Abdel Nasser in Beirut. And the 1958 revolution there was a second event to Abdel Nasser after the Suez battle two years earlier. And then to Beirut, was hosting the Palestinian revolution after it was removed from Jordan. Was considered that the shops Lebanon's political chemistry that will make that will result from his leadership. Was considered that loyalty in Lebanon is sold on the sidewalk.You can even buy the artists. There is the relationship between the spider vehicle is loaded and Syria. There is contact with Israel and the material necessary to make the Israeli leadership by talking about the resistance and liberation and nationalism. All these threads are on Lebanese soil. I like Muammar Lebanon containing the strings and spent it badly, then fold the page later and no longer enthusiastic about something. Years ago I said to him: We need an embassy in Beirut, where our image is tarnished, and that our presence there helps us to follow any mobility Arab. Suggested to him that we buy apples from Lebanon instead of Nstorda from distant countries. Said to me, we'll talk some other time.
The next time I went back to the topic, he said to me: «This issue is a red line. Lance Lebanon ». >, with whom she has a strong relationship in Lebanon? - not to establish such relations. Deal on the basis either that bring benefit to me or pay me harm. During my stay in the Ministry of Foreign Relations were frozen relations with the «Lebanese National Movement» in the earlier stage I was not involved. Of course he sat long sessions with Walid Jumblatt, Mohsen Ibrahim, George Hawi, Assem Qanso. Muammar problem with the Lebanese. Is the leader and the leader and thinker, but the Lebanese Kelmenjeon and love the discussions and give and take which is not palatable. Gaddafi did similar things in the African nations. Comes, and bestow upon someone money and then ask him to carry out a coup and if successful resort after a person to support him. To do so in Niger, Chad and others. Muammar had the theory that your neighbor should be unstable, because if you settled it becomes dangerous. Discussed in this theory once and I told him we can take advantage of the stability of neighboring countries and Jadlna some of the attendees, but he said I was right. Sometimes pretend to conviction without changing its policy. Most of the time was convinced of the theory say that the neighbor must be kept low in order to stay stronger than it. He loves to interfere in the internal affairs of other countries because it is looking for followers. He had dreamed that mimics Abdel Nasser told a summit of Arab leaders will be there tomorrow, do not come hastily to miss one.
These were held. Try to do it and did not succeed. This was the reason for his hatred of the Arabs in a later stage and heading to Africa. mostly poor Africans. The poor. Come to him and Ejammlonh. Is sitting on a high chair and sit on the chairs to accept less. Gives the fifty thousand dollars and twenty to that, and ten for the third. Arabs refused to submit to Muammar Gaddafi, with the exception of those who are already willing to sell their loyalty. > When decided to sever your relationship with Gaddafi? - on 15 February, young people came out in Benghazi and ended things on good. Escalation in the events happened on 16 and 17 February which had been covered up channel «island». My children have friends in Benghazi Engage with them today and they said he died so and so and so. Days 17 and February 18, killing a son Abdullah Sanusi, Muhammad Ismail people on the bridge and fell into a lake Gilliana «July 23» Calverashat. And demonstrations took place in Tripoli, Benghazi supports. Every day I spoke to officials in Libya, Muammar except I told them my brothers do not kill this error. If you kill Vsiksvunkm aircraft, they told a lie. Then we saw planes «MiG» Libya in Malta, and the pilots say, 'struck Benghazi cost us and we are now in Malta. Spoke to the Foreign Minister of Malta said to me: Yes, there are planes «MiG» Libyan our pilot named John Doe, and if you can talk to you. I spoke Tripoli told me a lie. Unreasonable. Is Malta is committed to and recognizes that it has two «MIG» and pilots and missiles, and it can be put on record their words and time, a lie. Spoke to Tripoli that day perhaps fifty times. I tried to speak to Muammar said to me shortly after not talking to me. Random we then great with his speech, he said: «Who are you? You rats ». There was a day 17 people in Tajura near Tripoli. Then he says: who are you, O rats. Why kill us and insults us, O Muammar We Ahbbnak and patience you and Samehnak and wasted our money? >
How many people killed Muammar Gaddafi since the beginning of his reign? - not information I have, but now after the recent events say the death toll twenty thousand, and I take it in half, ten thousand, and this number is small. > and revealed your position in the Security Council? - I was thrown in the words of the Security Council on 25 February. The events began on February 15 in Benghazi, and began as a for «island», my friend Laith cuneiform, one of the prisoners «Week of political» the paper, which you do it, has been imprisoned in Tripoli and tortured and now fled and became in Benghazi. you call a day and speak to officials and Erjohm to stop the killings They say: can not, that we reached on February 19 when a friend told my son in Benghazi that people died, beaten and killed in the demonstrations.And you call in Tripoli, and I say: There are young people were killed Vinvon, then there are planes bombing Vinvon.
The February 20 and they deny. I advise them every day and say to them: O our brothers say what they reject the death toll. Spoke to Secretary of General People's Congress angular Mohammed, Bashir Saleh, Director of the Office of Muammar Qaddafi, Abdullah Sanusi, al-Baghdadi al-Mahmoudi, Moses Kosi. On February 21 appeared on the «island» and I said to him: O brother Muammar power does not mean anything and the country's most important, I beg to concede and leave the Libyan people.Did not respond to Gaddafi. The next day spoke to me, Saif al-Islam Muammar Gaddafi, told me: 'O brother, Abdul Rahman is the words that I said? He said to me: I have two specific of Muammar Gaddafi: Why is Muammar Gaddafi for you? I said my father. He said: I?
